257: Does ChatGPT Really Work for Website Copy? - with Aaron Wrixon

Matt Wolach: 0:10

These days, it seems everyone is talking about ChatGPT or Google's Bard, or all the other potential AI options for creating copy. And as a software leader, it sounds so easy. Just put in a couple of words, and then it spits out your entire website. That sounds amazing. But is it really the best path forward? Well, I had Aaron Wrixon on the show, and he's a copywriter. And of course, he thinks that copywriting is good, but he actually goes in breaks down the pros and cons of using an API to create your copy as well as he gives us some advice for how to use maybe there's specific things we can do with it that will be helpful and really accelerate the process and save you quite a bit of money. So check this one out. If you're looking to make sure that your copy converts, Aaron is going to walk you through how to do that.

Intro/ Outro: 0:52

Welcome to Scale Your SaaS, the podcast that gives you proven techniques and formulas for boosting your revenue and achieving your dream exit brought to you by a guy who's done just that multiple times. Here's your host, Matt Wolach.

Matt Wolach: 1:08

Welcome to Scale Your SaaS super excited to have you here. Thank you for coming. If you're watching on YouTube, thanks for watching. If you're listening on the podcast network, thank you very much. Our goal here is to help you understand how to grow more leads, how to close those deals, and really scale your SaaS. So thanks for being here. If this is your first time, make sure you are subscribed to the show, hit that subscribe button. That way you're going to be notified of any new stuff that comes out and all the cool people were talking to so that you can grow your company. And I am super delighted for my guest today. I've got Aaron Wrixon with us, Aaron, how you doing?

Aaron Wrixon: 1:41

I'm good, Matt, thank you. I'm having a good time already. I'm excited to be here and excited to talk about scaling says I'd say again, congratulations on the name change.

Matt Wolach: 1:52

Thank you. Yeah, it's it's been a fun ride. Everybody seems to have drawn to it. We've actually boosted our subscriber count our download video view count. So everybody seems to like that. So we're very glad of that. It just reminds me that I am not smart. And I came up with the original name, and he's not a good one. So I'm glad that we have a better one. My team was like, hey, what about this, like, okay, but thank you for that. So let me just let me just make sure that everybody knows who you are Aaron. So Aaron is the founder at Rixon. And it's really cool. He has been paid for writing well over 8 million words. And that's the equivalent of more than 13 copies of war in peace, that giant super thick novel. He's written for about 150 Different industries across the English speaking world and now focuses on smart b2b SaaS companies with great products. So once again, Aaron, thanks for coming on the show.

Aaron Wrixon: 2:44

Thank you. I'm in fifth still feels pretty good to hear you say that stuff. 8 million words is a lot of words.

Matt Wolach: 2:52

That is, but it shows you're super experienced and know what you're doing. So tell me what's going on with you lately and what's coming up?

Aaron Wrixon: 2:58

Well, as you mentioned, these days, I'm focused on working with b2b SaaS that have a good product that maybe don't necessarily have their message dialed in. I've done in the past everything from a condom subscription to a kidney dialysis machine. So long, long, long history these days and SaaS working on a course on copywriting working on a book about how to write a great SAS website. Pretty fun. Oh, and you know, as we will discover later in the call, I get about six emails a day I'm working on answering those about what I'm going to do once AI puts me out of a job

Matt Wolach: 3:45

well, I'm excited to talk about that because I'm not so sure that's gonna happen but go back what gave you the idea that to help others with their copywriting?

Aaron Wrixon: 3:55

Well, I I started out long ago in sort of corporate Canada, or even worse government, Canada. And I was always good with words. But once I discovered sort of the classic copywriters, Rosser Reeves and Eugene Schwartz and these kinds of people, that was this for me, I realized, oh, wow, you can actually persuade with words. And so through training and writing, I've really kind of fell in love with the idea of helping companies like, perhaps like a lot of the people that are listening to this podcast. We've all there's all you know, tons of stories about the great product that just didn't make it, right. You've got product market fit, but it's still sort of, you can't get the traction you want and you run out of funding and just it's just over. A lot of times that's because the messaging is wrong, right. I would say that a great product is half of the question you need the product, but you also need the messaging. And I found that I could take what I knew about copywriting and help people really dial in on, you know, dialing in an audience delanoe the messaging dial in on how to how to communicate instantly what the value of the product is, and help more people fall in love with their product. That's how come I do what I do.

Matt Wolach: 5:21

I love it. Well, those of us who don't know what we're doing on copywriting glad that you're helping people. And what is that? So if you've got a SaaS business, you got some leaders and they feel like they can write their website or, or do other copy? What can an expert copywriter come in and do like, what kind of difference can that make for a company?

Aaron Wrixon: 5:42

Well, I mean, you know, the founder question, I think there's a book called The Founders dilemma. I call it the copy trap. You're either by choice or by necessity. Writing a copy of yourself. What I can do is provide that outside perspective and an effective set of tools to help get inside your head to figure out exactly what your product does and exactly why it's great. Get inside the heads of your best customers, figure out what makes them tick, throw it all together, synthesize it, then let it sit and come up with something that's never been said before. I mean, that's really my job is to find a way to communicate your value. In a fashion that's never been said before. In copywriting Well, the big idea, that's what I try to do is find the big idea behind your product and put it out in the world, that big idea will instantly answer a lot of key questions like, Who is this product for? You know, is it for me? Is it going to help me with the problem that I'm struggling with right now? Why should I get it now? Can I trust you, all these things can be summed up by a copywriter, not just me, but by a good copywriter. And just a few sentences, where it might take a software leader? Three pages to get to the point and three weeks to try to write those three pages.

Matt Wolach: 7:16

Oh, that's interesting. That makes a lot of sense that somebody who has tried to get all that information in a succinct way and had those three pages, I totally get it. And one of the things people are doing now, I mean, everybody's talking about chat GPT, of course, and can it really solve all our copy problems? So is that how do you feel about that, that now that this is here? What's going on with that?

Aaron Wrixon: 7:38

Well, as I mentioned, I get a lot of emails telling me that my career is over. Of course, you can imagine. My you know, the answer that everybody wants me to say or that expects me to say is that AI can't solve any of our copy problems. That's not exactly the case. There are things that it can do, I like to compare it to the difference between a professionally cooked meal by a chef and a microwave dinner. You know, when I was growing up, we had TV dinners he had to make in the oven. But now you can pop it in the microwave, and have a meal inside of three minutes. That's great, right? Like a chef, a copywriter will study for years and years and practice and practice and get really good at creating website copy that speaks directly to target audience that drives conversions. copywriter will understand the nuances of language, how to craft really compelling copy that resonates with readers. A copywriter will provide valuable insights into what works best for your company's unique needs. Now like a really great meal made by a chef back to cost a lot of money. So on the other hand, you have this Dr. Ai copy where it seems to spit out this magic, right and you can put in a prompt and in 20 seconds it spits out 250 words that can be super fast and efficient. But it really is like a microwave dinner. The results might not be as fulfilling as they should. They maybe they're not as satisfying as if you made something from scratch. Maybe they're not as nutritious maybe if that's all you eat, you're going to end up for 400 pounds and still ironically malnourished. So it has its purposes if you're in a hurry and you want to eat something pops up in the microwave. If you're in a hurry and you need a piece copy or you need to some inspiration for a piece copy. Go ahead and check out what AI has to do. But you know for me right now, it's such a transitional time it shows it shows so much promise. And you know without resorting to scare tactics, there's some threats Are two I don't know what Google plans to do with AI copy. I don't know whether they plan to penalize AI copy. I don't know now that they're announcing their own cut means, as we're recording this, they announced today, they showed it off today. I don't know whether they're going to deprecate other technologies in favor, there's because there's a somehow better I just have no idea what the next year at 18 months, it's gonna hold for AI generated copy? So the answer to the question is, let's just wait and see, maybe it will put me out of a job. I strongly doubt it. You've mentioned as much at the beginning of the conversation. Let's see where we go.

Matt Wolach: 10:42

Yeah, super interesting to think about that future. But you know, I agree, I don't, I don't think I'm gonna do the everything in the bln. Doll, it's like you said it's get to part of the way there. But if you really need results from your website, or from your copy, you need someone who has that that nuance that a human can deliver. So I think I think a lot of people feel that way. But let's, let's let's look at it. Let's look at some of the opportunity here. If we if we don't necessarily want it to do everything, like, Hey, here's three pieces about my business, go write the whole website. Can we use copy for to aid in our efforts in some way? Or it? Can we use AI? Should I say to aid in our copy efforts?

Aaron Wrixon: 11:19

Well, that's how I do it. Right. I mean, you mentioned that we all know how important it is to have compelling copy on your website. This is going to be the first impression that a lot of people get it's going to be the thing that pushes them over the edge turns them from tire kicker to lead and perhaps customer. So, you know, I think what you're asking is, should you use a chat GPT or jasper.ai? Or a chibi or any of these tools? To? To kick it out? The answer is going to depend on needs and budget. But I think what you're what you're saying is it's also going to depend on what do you want to do with the thing? For me, I actually do use AI, because it really helps me the specific processes like ideating and outlining and letting a scan the web and spit out an answer that's, you know, that I can reasonably assume is close to what the internet thinks about a particular issue. So yeah, I mean, when you're staring at the blank page, and wondering what to write for, you know what to write for? Here's a copy on your homepage. Sure, you could ask something like chat TPT to, to tell you, and then take that. And that's what that's when you have to engage with it as a human, you have to put your BS detector on and say, Does this make sense? Is this where I want to go? Is it accurately reflecting the value of my product? You know, frankly, once you hit that point, you're into copywriter territory, right? So can it's can it put me out of a job? I don't think so. Does it shortcut these processes? For sure.

Matt Wolach: 13:09

Yeah, that makes sense. So what are some of the mistakes that software leaders are making around copy in general? And what are some things you're seeing that make you cringe a little bit?

Aaron Wrixon: 13:21

Well, I think no matter whether you use AI to help you or you know, to be frank to write the whole thing, because some people are doing that for sure. And that definitely makes me cringe. Or whether you use a copywriter, you have to talk about your product, and to talk about what makes it different, you know, your, your features and benefits and how those differ from competition and how that makes you better. That's really hard for people to do. And I don't think machines can, can do that. So thinking that you can simply type a couple of words into an AI prompt and have it spit out those differentiators. That's a big mistake people are making these days. Another shortcut that software leaders take because they're, you know, frankly, short on time is they forget that there's there's an art to compelling people to do what you want them to do with just words. I mean, there's a reason we call it selling with words. It's not like a demo where you can show somebody how things work, and then leave it up to them to connect the dots and say, oh, gosh, I really need this. You have to make those connections for them. You have to be the one that tells them they really need it. And you have to do that explicitly with your copy. And people forget to do that. So they say things like revolutionizes the way that you handle team meetings. But they forget to answer the burning question which is essentially so what right if you have a product that rev elation eyes is the way that team meetings are handled. That means that you can get more done in meetings. Sure, you can accomplish more, you can be more productive, you can have a happier team. This smartest people go even deeper than than say, Okay, what does that mean? Well, that means that you're going to look like a better manager and you're going to end up getting promoted. This kind of stuff is the the meat of what copywriters do. And thinking that because this generative tool, this thing that generates sentences without creating insight, you know, this thing that can spit out facts without inventing facts? Or sorry, I should say, without accurately representing the true facts, because Sure, it invents facts sometimes. That's, that can be a big mistake to to lean on that like, like, a crutch to put too much trust in. In AI.

Matt Wolach: 16:08

Yeah, I can see that happening for sure. What about even outside of AI? What What mistakes are software leaders making? When they try to do it on their own? Perhaps?

Aaron Wrixon: 16:16

Well, you know, me, I'm a copywriter, I'm always gonna say, Yes, I would love you know, for you to rely on working with a copywriter. There's a financial commitment there a time commitment. But I think it's critical when you're trying to position your company, when you're trying to brand your product, get in the mind of your best customer. When you're trying to find product market fit, get funding or find traction? Like do you really want to trust a thing that stitches together words like, you know, beads on a kid's bracelet? Or do you want to work with an expert that can actually do the work to review your testimonials and your support tickets and your surveys and dive deep into the mind of your best buyer and you know, help you steer your brand and say something that's actually exciting. This is this is one of the key mistakes is is thinking that because you developed a great product, then you know how to communicate its value. When a lot of the times what I do is work as an advocate for the person buying that product. As an outsider, I can come in and say okay, cool, tell me everything that your you know, your pay snacks app does. And then I translate that into something that's going to resonate with the buyer. So I'm going to tell them what they need something that's going to capture them instead of a couple of seconds, and convince them to sign up for a trial or a demo or or, you know, take the plunge and, and subscribe.

Matt Wolach: 17:56

I love what you said there, you think of yourself as an advocate for the buyer. And this is something that I preach to my clients, I'm always telling my clients, we should be helping, not selling and if your product, if you truly believe that your product is a good thing that's going to make their lives better. That's going to help them grow their company or save money or save time or whatever you're trying to do, then you need to explain it well enough on the front end, you need to do it on your demos well enough to be able to convince them that they need it. Because if you can't convince them with your website, or demos or any other part of your process, then they are worse off. If your product truly great, then they're going to be worse off if they don't get it. So I love that mindset, Aaron of being an advocate for the buyer, so that they will be convinced and get something that's going to help them That's brilliant.

Aaron Wrixon: 18:51

I appreciate it. i It's one of the things that separates I think great writers from from good writers or bad writers. Some writers think about words on a page. And and the good ones think about what are those words doing? Are those words actually connecting. It's a communication process as saying, you know if I can say one more thing, based off what you just said, you know, you talked about demos and so on. I think one of the things that people forget is that the kind of work that I do can be cascaded throughout those things. If we come up with the tagline Gashi you can say it in your demo, you can say it in your onboarding sequence, you can put it into the app, you can work it into UX coffee. The stuff that that that I do has that kind of trickle down effect where once we pull out the value, once we really zero in on what that mean benefit is and how to communicate it to somebody that makes them say, oh my gosh, I want that now. You can then just waterfall that out to everything else that ends up in the demo. It ends up on the trial landing page, it ends up in the gets a trial email or the activation sequence, or the onboarding in, and so on and so on.

Matt Wolach: 20:11

Love it. And in that is something that we talked about a lot within our program is make sure that your buyer journey is consistent throughout. So if we do have stuff at the top of the funnel, it should be in the middle, it should be at the bottom, it should be all the way throughout even beyond once they get started. That same type of messaging should still be in their ears and things they read. So I'm glad that you're of the same mind on that. I want to ask that we're kind of wrapping up here. What advice do you have for early stage software companies and software leaders who are are trying to grow and want some good copy?

Aaron Wrixon: 20:44

Well, it can be hard to prioritize. I always say start at the start, I think that people, first of all, let's make a quick distinction between copy and content, maybe we should have made it at the beginning of this podcast. For me, there's a difference between what I write and that's the stuff that converts people from barely interested into leads and customers. And then there's stuff like content, the blog posts, in the ebooks in the white papers, and so on and so forth. make that distinction now, because a lot of people will say, oh, we need to write these massive blog posts so that we can get noticed we can drop people to the site. That is maybe but if you're bringing them to your site and your message things off, or your leads aren't converting because your landing pages is not happening, you know, you've wasted a lot of money on getting those blog posts, I've wasted a lot of time waste a lot of effort. So as much as the temptation is to go after top of funnel keywords or bottom of funnel keywords in blog posts, to get out there on social and be you know, the king of LinkedIn for your category. I really always advise people to start out by getting their house in order by making sure that the website does as much as it can to, to communicate that value to convert people. Then I say Okay, once that's done, then move to the conversion engine where you've got the landing pages, thank you pages, email service and follow up. Then once you've got all that stuff in place, then it's time to focus on Okay, cool. Now we're gonna attract people now we can drag people in and put them into this machine so that we can convert more of them to leads more effectively.

Matt Wolach: 22:34

A lot. That's super helpful. So where can people get to know you or learn more about what you're doing?

Aaron Wrixon: 22:41

Well, I say As always, I'm hanging out my little part of the web. It's a tricky one to spell. So I like to spell it for people. WRIX o n.com wrixon.com. Or you can look for me, Eric Erickson with two A's on LinkedIn. That's where you can find me.

Matt Wolach: 23:00

Okay, perfect. We'll put that into the show notes as well as in the description there. So this has been awesome. Thanks. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for coming on the show. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing all this.

Aaron Wrixon: 23:11

I appreciate being here. You asked some insightful questions. And I hope I've at least clarified some of the muck for your listeners around should we use AI or should we use the AW. Like that? I

Matt Wolach: 23:25

think we have. I liked that was did you just come up with that right now?

Aaron Wrixon: 23:30

What I do. Perfect.

Matt Wolach: 23:34

Well, awesome. Thank you so much for being here. And I really appreciate it and thanks again. Likewise, and everybody else Thank you out there. Thanks for coming. Thanks for watching. Make sure you're subscribed to the channel you do not want to miss on any other amazing experts and creatives like Aaron so definitely hit that subscribe button you'll get notified and then we will see you next time. Take care.

Intro/ Outro: 23:57

Thanks for listening to Scale Your SaaS for more help on finding great leads and closing more deals. Go to Mattwolach.com